Generation Kill: A Bad Afternoon in Afghanistan Options

[Severe]

Otto, you are correct on way it was done with Sea Lion and Jet's game. Having a chance to do Sea Lion again, I would opt for player based medics so the refs could be free to manage the game.

I don't get the claiming 'real war conditions' and implementing this sort of instant reinsertion concept. This rule complete ignores that wounded fighters are a force reducer. Battlefield philosophy predicts that it takes two, or more, support personnel to attend to each wounded fighter. If they want to make the game more 'real', then require two, or more team mates to escort the 'wounded' player to the ref. Let's see how fast your teammates tell you to call out when you ask them to break contact so you can get reinserted. I completely don't get the idea that the ref can come to you.

Honestly, this sounds more like a computer game like Battlefield 2. The medic runs around with medic bags and shock paddles. Pretty much anything can be healed except for the head shot or the massive hit like a tank HEAP round vs. soldier hit.

The rules also seem to be ignoring that the US troops represented in the game should all be wearing level III body armor which should negate any chest/torso shots also. For them ONLY a head shot should be lethal and everything else is healable.

If TA is donating all this money to support a military family, then this is a really skewed way to generate funds. I haven't really had the time to read up on the response to this on other forums. Does anyone know if it has been positive or negative? It looks almost entirely negative here.

[JesterTLS]

I havent seen much on it else where. I know its posted on Junkie but I havent checked it there. There is the thread on the Empire, but I hadnt seen alot on a discussion of the rules. I will be reviewing that thread shortly myself.

[Noah]

It's been receiving highly negative replies on RAP4 and our own forum. It seems Rogue Cell also posted up about it too on their own forum and feel likewise. In the interest of being fair and standing up to the heat if there should be any, I also posted it up on MilSimEmpire, but I don't think there have been any responses to the post.

[JesterTLS]

There has. About four replies commenting on your post in ref to their rules (including mine).


I just dont see how wipe cards could end anyway but badly. It may work out fine, I dont know.




EDIT:

For everyones reference, page 8 and 9.
http://www.milsimempire.com/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=6768

[Noah]

Thanks, Jester. I just went back and saw those.

I replied with the following:

I agree with all that has been said.

As I've said on other forums, if these were labeled "medic" cards and not "wiping" cards, the reaction might be a bit different. However, even then, these are wrong on other levels.

If they are truly "medic" cards, then make them available to all as part of the game and with no additional fees. Put restrictions and conditions on their use that would mimic real life circumstances, e.g., head shot = no wipe, and have designated medics that are limited in number making the 'heals' instead of any nearby ref who should be doing something else with their time like managing the rest of the game.

But putting all of that aside, this as it states, promotes wiping -- something that is loathed by those that take this sport seriously. Sometimes even referring to it as a 'sport' is not right because it means even more to us than just that. But I've always said that I too understand cheating will occur anywhere and everywhere. When someone cheats to try and beat me, I take that as a compliment since they must use illegal props to try and equal me.

Wiping will still happen. But as ambassadors of this sport, and Tango Alpha 2 also proclaims themselves to be such too, we should not be promoting a cheating behavior. Worse, to profit from it.

Also, since some folks didn't actually receive the emailed newsletter from TA2 promoting the game, they asked for a link to it. I don't know how to link it or paste it properly, but there is a redirect link that takes you to a webpage for those that have troubles reading embedded emails. That link is:

http://campaign.constantcontact.com/render...-mObpNg0LhGUeiQ

[Wingman]

Also, since some folks didn't actually receive the emailed newsletter from TA2 promoting the game, they asked for a link to it. I don't know how to link it or paste it properly, but there is a redirect link that takes you to a webpage for those that have troubles reading embedded emails. That link is:
http://campaign.constantcontact.com/render...-mObpNg0LhGUeiQ

Anyone wanting to be added to the mailing list can sign up at http://GenKillPaintball.com at the bottom of the window.

We knew the idea of Wipe/Medic Cards would be controversial and I personally want to thank Ken (Noah) for the free buzz. He stomped off the team a year and a half ago and even to this day, we can still entertain him. My job is done. That he "encourages" all this buzz with the same exact post on numerous forums makes me think I am still important to him on a personal level. I'm getting all misty here....

In regards to the game and the cards...

1.) Our first goal is to make the game fun for as many people as possible.
To do this, we tried to figure out ways to keep people on the field and in the action (so they get more playing value for their money). CDWC is a large field and even with two DZs per army, which are diagonally opposite of each other on opposing sides of the 72 acre field,.. meaning you are looking at a walk across at least a possible 10 acres to get to a DZ... uphill. Then back again to your battle zone. Now you are out of the action for at least a half hour, if not more. In a six hour game, how many half hour DZ breaks does it take to minimize your value:action ratio?

Another issue commanders have in every game is that once their forces leave the field, it is hard to get them back. Ask Greenman. The Wipe/Medic Card idea is to maximize your playing time. Giving you more shooting time for your money. Essentially, we are making the Role Player/Refs "medics" and regulating it.

2.) Our secondary goal is to make money. This shouldn't be a shock to most people.
Anyone who works this hard for FREE has our greatest admiration, but this event is how we afford to play and go to events and purchase team equipment for the year, as opposed to being sponsored by a company or field. Yes, the hope is, besides adding more play time to the game, that the cards are way for us to make additional funds and enable us to giveaway shirts, multiple discounts, prizes and send money to a military-family-in-need. It costs several thousand to produce a good event, which we are doing out of our own pockets. So yes, we are producing this game to make money for the team. I am sorry if we shattered any illusions there. However, as much time and effort as we put into this, not one dime goes into any Team Tango Alpha member's pocket, including, and especially, mine.

We are open to any team or players that have problems with us trying to increase revenues in paintball, to match every cent we generate for the military-family-in-need, dollar for dollar. Or better yet, produce an event this size and donate ALL the money to our military family. Or… we would be happy to take a voluntary donation of the $20+ in discount opportunities we give each player as a direct donation to the charity and then just produce a "pure" game with no twists. I'm not being a smartass (this time), but either we find alternative ways to raise money or we can't give away shirts, prizes, discounts, and/or charity money.

3.) Our third goal is to generate money for a military-family-in-need.
No one is making us do this. Or even suggested we should. We came up with this because we feel it's the right thing to do since our team is making money and they are sacrificing... for real. We are not doing this because more people may play if it is for a good cause, but because there are families out there that Afghanistan took something from, and we wouldn't feel right otherwise. Or… we can AVOID finding new ways, such as the cards, to raise money and then donate less to the family. I would rather take a little criticism and give more money.

4.) Our fourth goal is to always have a game that is unique.
Last year, in our first production, we created one of the largest games in the state, that the majority of people truly seem to enjoy. We did that by making the game slightly twisted. If the Wipe/Medic Card idea doesn't fly, no one wants to purchase them, or it doesn't enhance the game, the next game won't have them. The players will dictate the success of the idea. No one HAS to buy them. Ken's right about ONE thing, the cheaters probably won't buy them and just wipe. People with integrity, that want to stay in the action, MAY use them. We'll see. Anyone can jtry and produce a same-ole-same-ole paintball game. The challenge is to make it different and take chances. We are not shooting for absolute realism here. That's mil-sim. We are shooting for pure entertainment value. Severe said this is like a video game. He's right. This IS a game. No one should take it so seriously that they lose sight of that.

To address some of the specific issues brought up on various forums...

1.) Can you pay enough to be invincible? No. The cards are limited and so will be your access to them.

2.) Can you pay enough to just win? No, but if it will raise more money for the charity, we can start a bidding war. Noah, you first.

3.) You are still going to have to locate a ref and get your card pulled and return to the fight (without getting shot AGAIN). This is no different from having a medic on your team or a nearby DZ. It just regulates it better. Now a teammate (on the opposing side) can't get unlimited wipes from his buddy/member, he can only get limited ones and it has to be from an impartial ref.

4.) And no, Otto, I don't hate you. I don't know you well enough for that. Give me time, we can work up to that later. Kidding. And everyone's opinion matters. Especially those attending. It's their game too. We are very open to suggestions on how to make the Wipe Card thing work better. Or any constructive ideas about the game, rules or missions. The idea of limited cards for the whole day, like at Sea Lion or Black River, is constructive. We are definitely open to constructive ideas to make the game better. My personal favorite is a "Dogs of War Hot Dog Stand" where all the profits go to charity. I have yet to receive one direct email complaining about the cards. It takes more effort and character to play the game, come up with ideas to help out the charity (and the game) than it does to just abstain and complain. Dave Thompson and several others have sent mission ideas that we are implementing. Ironman from Rogue Cell came up with a number of ways to raise more charity money and we are trying to do all of them. Col Mustard echo'd some suggestions as well, on raising more charity money.

5.) Outcast, yes, we are definitely looking for ways to make more money out of the event. Our production costs are waaaaay up, as this year we are giving to charity, giving away shirts, discounts and prizes, and the economy is impacting attendance at every paintball scenario. So we are making considerably less money, with more work, and our growth is impacted by the economy. We are doing everything we can to encourage attendance, make it fun, AND make money. Right now, the pre-registration numbers are higher, earlier, than last year, so it looks like it is working. We'll see.

6.) Players who walk out of sight, wipe, and come back in... please show me a game where that doesn't happen anyway. Please. We will have over 20 refs/role players on the field and any ref that sees anyone wiping has the power to expel that player from the game. Period. Gone. We are concentrating the action, the field, the refs, missions and conflicts to specific areas and will have ref/role players shadowing teams to stay close to the action. Short of a public caning, that's about all we can do to discourage cheating. The cards will hopefully reduce some of that by removing the distance/hills incentive. You will still have to find a ref and present your card and get back to the action ALIVE. But cheaters are cheaters and probably won't pay anyway. The cards will give the players (with honor) an opportunity to continue playing, eliminate the cheater's 'advantage', without sacrificing their principles.

7.) Is this more work for the refs? Yes. The CDWC refs are paid money to be there and the Tango role players are volunteers earning their way into Fulda Gap. Will there be a ref everywhere? No. But probably closer than a DZ or the staging area. You still have to dead walk to find one and get healed.

8.) Col Mustard brought up a number of points: "Are you handicapped?" After a day of hard core playing at CDWC, maybe. "Do you think the exercise might be good for you?" Of course, but are you there to work out or to have fun? "Will the cards cause more chaos than they are worth?" Maybe, but not to the family we are helping out AND the only way to find out is to take a chance. "Where does the money go?" To the charity. The proceeds from the Wipe Cards go the military family, but we didn't feel we should use the charity to increase sales. Maybe we should have. Mustard made all good points, but does any of that matter if we can add more play time to the game or make it more fun?

I can, however, appreciate the fact that, while opposed to the cards, at least Mustard is not just criticizing from the sidelines, but willing to play against players who may be closer to respawning than he is. That takes some courage and putting his skills where his opinion is.

9.) Is this card idea "out there"? Definitely. How much more different is it than having DZ's though? In the real world, a soldier is shot and killed. End of Game. Body bag. In paintball (video games, football, etc.), we respawn to keep people PLAYING. DZ's were created to make respawning easier, faster and to keep people in the game. We don't eliminate shot players permanently from the game. Do we eliminate DZ's because they are only for "pansies" too weak to get to the staging area? We're just talking about easier ways to stay in the action, not the meaning of life here.

10.) So, should we have called them "Medic-Ref Cards" instead of "Wipe Cards"? Maybe. But what would Noah have to post about then?

11.) Does this fundamentally change the game of out maneuvering and out shooting your enemy? No. Is the issue here that we are trying to make a few sheckles after the charity, discounts, prizes and our expenses? Would it be philosophically different if we gave them away and gave no money to charity? Would Ken love me any less?

12.) Should this be the future of the sport? No. But fields are going to have to find a way to make more money or they will be gone. Ask any field owner about scenario costs and revenues right now. Even if we have more people than last year, we will only make a fraction of what we did then. We're just trying to find ways to shake up the status quo on OUR game. Seems to have worked. We're not trying to evolve the sport, we are trying to make it fun for people and make a few bucks as well as give some back.

The bottom line is: We're not telling anyone they HAVE to buy these cards. If you or your team feel this is not for you, then don't buy them. They are certainly not mandatory. The cheaters won't spend the money or abuse them, they will simply wipe. Hardcore diehard players may not use them at all and spend less time actually playing and more time schlepping to dead zones. Honest players will use them to stay close to the action. If it is truly a bad idea (and it may be), then no one will buy them, and we won't do them again (i.e. no lunch break last year). The card doesn't encourage cheating, it is essentially a medic card that can only be validated through a ref. If you are so philosophically opposed to that idea that you don't want to attend, we understand, will miss you and hope that you change your mind. We think that this will be one of the more fun games of the year with plenty of action. But when it is all said and done, this is just a game.

[Noah]

"Where does the money go?" To the charity. The proceeds from the Wipe Cards go the military family, but we didn't feel we should use the charity to increase sales. Maybe we should have. Mustard made all good points, but does any of that matter if we can add more play time to the game or make it more fun?

See? Now that wasn't so hard, now was it? As also mentioned in the posts, if you had just said that from the very beginning, it wouldn't have been an issue at all. Just amazing how that wasn't mentioned in the stated reasons, but was nevertheless a driving factor. And yes, I can understand how mentioning the fact that the proceeds from the wipe card sales would be going to a charity might discourage people from participating to support a good cause . . .

But I was right about a number of things, if not most things. Including the fact that you'd come out and say that it was for charity...which I applaud on a number of levels. One, that you are donating the money to a family in need. Hats off for doing that. And two, for finally doing the right thing. I know that isn't easy for you, so hats off to you again.

But for the record, I didn't stomp off TA2. In fact, I threw a BBQ for the team after a CQB event I hosted at Paintball Kingdom for which I even provided the cases of paint for it. Some of the Rogues were there as well. You were there too and from the bbq sauce on your face, I'd say you enjoyed it. I was, however, the first to leave the team. But I must have been right once again, because I wasn't at all the last. Starting from the temp team through the entire original team and many since at some point have "stomped" off. 20+ players. They just don't appreciate you the same way you do. But you're right: we're still entertained! Much the same way you can't avoid looking away from road-kill at the side of the road. But I digress.

But no, I won't be attending the event. Not because I don't support charitable endeavors. I think we all support our own charities and do our own community volunteer services. I won't be attending the event because as you once told me, "there are lots of places to spend my money, and if I just don't like the person, I can spend my money elsewhere." Paul, I just don't like you. I will be spending my money elsewhere and get support to those that need it in a better fashion.

In any event, I am glad you are now doing the right thing and donating the money from the wipe/medic cards to charity. I hope you make a lot of money for the family.

[Severe]

Hey HEY hey! I made the top two issues list. In the immortal words of your average street zombie..."BRAINS!"

Wingman, the single biggest issue I have with the idea is that it puts a financial burden on one team to achieve the same thing another team might have. Rules should be equitable across all the players of a given game. Any advantage that one team, group or player gains through spending extra money causes issues in my mind. At least outside the typical arms-race that is typical in paintball markers. Asking players to spend extra money to gain more play time....just doesn't feel right. Any player landing an eliminating shot on another should be rewarded with the knowledge that his target has to take a walk. A full, up-hill both ways, knee torturing walk to the DZ/insertion point. Not to the nearest ref who's busy poking the ant hills for entertainment.

It's been my experience that paintball teams are largely very generous. Almost competitively speaking. We're also collectively big eatters. In the one game I've ever been associated in producing, we made more money on selling hotdogs and hamburgers than any other part. During that game we got a portion of the registration and none of the paint fees. The food was completely ours. It's just a suggestion, but if you wanted a less controversial way to generate charity money, then sell food advertised as such. Hell, have a hotdawg eating contest (which by default would be won my Mistaken!).

Just my .02

[ColMustard]

Well, you guys went and made me sign up for another forums!

Wingman, I am glad that the wipe cards will have a portion, if not all, going to charity, but my team will still not be buying them. As was briefly mentioned above by Noah, we too have our own personal charities that we donate too, so that isn't a selling point.

I still don't like the idea of how they could unbalance an equal system or how they make refs into medics, but as I have said elsewhere I will be there to add more paint to the uniform of anyone that uses one. (Not that I will overshoot them, but that I will be happy to begin firing once they are back in the game).

It's not my skills I believe in for the respawning at DZs concept, but instead my body... One of the things that I love about CDWC is the hills (no I'm not crazy) they have caused me to get into shape, in fact better shape than even 10 years ago when I was a senior in high school...

[JesterTLS]

Wingman,

I dont have any kind of issue with you or your team. I think this game is for a good cause. I understand the concept of fund raisers for team and charity. Aint nothing wrong with that in the least. But I dont care for the ideal of a paid "upgrade" if you will. It just doesnt feel right. And my other issue with this will be when your wipe card carrier walks into the enemy base that they are attacking to have the base ref "wipe" them and then to have them take out the base or pop the opposing general. A valid tactic as I see it with this wipe card. Its gonna piss people off to high heaven. I am concerned you guys may be doing your team a dis-service. Reputations are the only thing we really have in this game.

[Morph]

I like pie!!!!! Apple, Peach, pumpkin, pecan, poon-tang, there all good! I like pie!

[Outcast]

Woohoo I made the list! I didn't think anyone listened to me. J/k
Wingman, making money is not a bad thing. Every buddy likes a little extra green in their pocket. Just with the economy many players are having trouble even staying in the sport. I mean, paintball has seen better days. So it might be frowned upon if a game produce looks like he is just trying to make an extra buck at the players' expense. I'm not saying that is what TA2 is doing but it can definitely be seen that way. Also most of the early posts, if not all, didn't even mention the charity. Sounds like Noah did a lot of advertising for you, but the solid fact that about the charity was not widely known. I get the TA2 newsletters and I'm sure somewhere it said something to that effect, but I don't always read them or have time to read the whole thing. Maybe Noah isn't your best PR rep and preempting his comments to come with your own posts would help. I'm still not a huge fan of "wipe cards" and will aim to prevent a simple wipe of the paint, then back to the fire fight. But last year I had a lot of fun at Gen Kill and I am already registered. So now I just need to put together a costume. I'm thinking .. Oil Sheik in a very down to Ala way... Maybe a nice jacket and a shemagh. To bad I can't just wear sunglasses with gold trim. Oh I know! I'll get some big fake gold chains and rings!

[Jet]

A little late to the show, and no I am not going. Not because I don't like TA2, or anoyone else. Basically I'm poor and this month is another big hole in the pocket month due to Birthdays and Valentines day. Eventually I will learn to budget for Paintball events. On the Whipe cards, had you called them anything else I doubt the debate would be here, if initially, heavily advertised as a fund raiser for a military family in need it would have helped. Coming from someone who ran 17 events in the last few years I know what advertising costs, t-shirts cost and prizes can run. Very few of the prizes given away by BeBop came from our direct sponsors, usually we contacted other Paintball companies and they gave us a decent amount of stuff to give away. For Charity events, to a certified Charity, they gave us ALOT of stuff. BR Paintball and Splatbrothers also were very generous in their prize packages for the games we held at their fields. Yes several items were older DVD's and shirts and low end guns. But the field, in support of the Charity event and normal events knew this was the cost of succesful events with guarenteed return business. I know every field wants their money, it is how they survive. For most it is their living. Now onto the actual issue at hand, the Whipe Cards.

Keep in mind we tried the ref cards at several events before abandoning them. Why did we do away with them?

Players just cheated, they would walk away from the fight, turn around and go back to the fight, no medic punch, no ref was spoken to, they just returned to the fight.

Refs: The refs had a hard time keeping up with the cards and what do with them, yes even after the cards were explained at least three times. Players could not find a ref. Refs were not close enough to the fight or there would be three refs all on one side of the fight and none on the side where a player needed them.

Players would be confused and mad as hell that a player walked away from the fight only to return, again many times without the ref heal.

We swithced to player medics, or no medics. No offense to the players at BR, many didn't seem to get using the medics, engineers, demo, etc. Again we were converting Speedballers to Scenario ballers. And the guys at BR have come around ( I think).

Honestly I think SB's has it right. Medics, with white scraps to wrap around the wounded player's arm. Two heals is all you get, then back to base/insertion/ you go.

Overall, for the reasons TA2 list for trying the whipe cards (charity), it is okay. For regular usage, I would avoid the event.

If you are paying more than $5.00 a shirt you need to call Allen at BR and get his guy for shirts.

[kurb]

Thread is now a 8/10
Will read again.

[Severe]

Wingman,

Just another point to consider.... While all of the players will have equal access to purchase these 'reinsert' cards they may, or may not, have equal access to the refs handling them.

For example, if there is a pitched firefight across a creek with a ref on one side the players on the same side as the ref will have inherently easier access to being 'healed'. Creek or no creek, a team/group with a bunch of cards could monopolize a refs time leaving the opposite numbers at a disadvantage. While a situation like that may NEVER happen, the possibility of it should be noted. I think you'll have your hands full making sure that your refs are being impartial in their heals and making themselves available to both sides of the fight. It will be far to easy for a 'friendly' ref to ghost his buds and take care of them.

You could also have instances where friends approach refs to appear that they are getting healed...have a quick word, then return to the fight.

That's kind of my line of thinking when I get worried about equal access to the rules. As others have said, the influence of actually money makes it a tough rule to wrap minds around. I think if you had a game where teams go gather/earn fictional money and in turn purchase medi-vacs or M.A.S.H. units, it would have never been questioned as it was an integral part of the game.

You're really going to need to flush out your rules not only for the players but for the refs.

[Paintball_Caroli...]

I'm not going to jump in that conversation, but ....

We have pictures and video from Generation Kill on our site ... http://www.paintballcarolina.com

if anyone is interested

[Severe]

Would anyone who attending care to share an AAR? It would be nice to hear out the new game mechanics played out and what, if any, lessons learned can be incorporated in to new rules.

[Iron Man]

Here is a bit of helmet cam video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyKg_esSdMY

Nothing fancy, still learning how to use and edit.